Geez! Before a show on color in antiquity at Frankfurt's Liebieghaus Skulpturensammlung, art historian Max Hollein noted that well into the twenty-first century, the idea of a "pure, marble-white Antiquity" prevailed despite many hints that sculpture was often painted. It is possible to see yourself as ‘White’ as being defined that way because of your skin colour, without it being a construct as used today for racism etc. Were Greek & Roman Statues Painted - The Ancient Home We’re supposed to accept the EUROCENTRIC BS that has them miraculously walking enmass out of their caves in Asia(Europe is not a continent)and creating an advanced civilization like Greece. Unfortunately, too many humans still need his “omnipotent delusional crutch”. It must be stressed though…genetic markers denote origins only, not ethnicity! From the river Iber in the West to the river Evros in the East – that space in between is Greek concept…Evropi. The unfortunate part (and reality) is that people are getting hung up on Black and White. This one is a social construct through and through. This is incorrect reasoning. Now, a few things about the comments: One influential purveyor of this falsehood was Johann Joachim Winckelmann (d. 1768). I am not a nationalist. What color were togas in ancient Greece? 2-trail and error period, They had no privilege based on skin colour to defend. In her own words: ‘Any attempt to question the authenticity of ancient Greek civilization is of direct concern even to people who ordinarily have little interest in the remote past. https://unherd.com/2020/10/the-progressive-case-for-empire/. Women in ancient Greece and Rome were traditionally expected to stay inside and out of the sun, so they were usually very pale; whereas men were expected to go outside and work in the sun, so they were usually deeply tanned. I am not sure if you have fully grasped what I have in my mind when I typed those thoughts here. God or Nature or whatever had to think on this and decided to place this 5% under my belly and between my legs. These traditions about Delphos’s mother’s name seem to have given rise to a belief that Delphos was of African ancestry. What difference does it make if I am an archaeologist, architect, road sweeper, regarding this matter?? The author hypocritically ignores this while pointing out how the Greeks considered themselves as “different” from N. Europeans and hence they are not “white.”. Rewriting the wrong views we have about the past according to what historians (etc) actualy do know about the past. Lol, talk to some Arabs one day. The population may have been mixed due to trade relations and slavery, but the Greek language is the only one to remain dialect-free. A reference to people who lived in a hot country/climate, and also colour of skin vis-a-vis the ‘White’ skin of the Greece. I think the most important takeaway is acknowledging the “whitewashing” and misrepresentation of classical figures in modern society. Greece was always a seafaring nation. That these monuments reside with the British should alert However, what the quote does show and the others and those mentioned in Frank Snowden Jnr book (as well as his reference to Black Ethiopian/White Greek vases) is that colour was noted in ancient society and hence the reason for the quote(s). Balkanian: Greeks are not comfortable with this Turkic term. I understand. But those who are excessively White (like the Scythians) are also cowards as we can see from the example of women, the complexion of courage is between the two.”. Hi, Part of the Novgorod School of painting, Russia 15th century. i.e. (Is that a better word? Or was your statement merely conceptual? That was the dark ages. Either way, it means nothing. But it was not condoned, nor was it widely practiced. Greek people weren’t just brought into contact with darker-skinned peoples of Asia and Africa, though; at least some people from those other cultures actually came to live in Greece itself. My 8 and 5 year old are blonde with blue eyes and white skin. 1929) tested the race concept by studying global genetic variation. Even so, it still dates from hundreds of years after Terence’s death. These travelers brought back detailed, first-hand information about the powerful Meroitic Kushite Empire, which, as I discuss in this article from June 2020, ruled the lands south of Egypt in what is now central Sudan. Egyptians were even barred from entering Alexanderia and living in certain residential areas. Here is Alexander on his horse at the Battle of Issues from an ancient Greek Mosaic. Is their perception a veridical representation of the facts?? With regard to point about ‘mixed’, I am referring to the population as awhole. Haemus natives are recognizable by the genes they carry. Found inside – Page 1847.10- NAXOS Cycladic marbles , which are extracted mainly from the islands of Naxos and Paros , were the first to have been utilised in the Greek world and have played a key role in the development of the working techniques and ... This is the one which portrays Greece as a woman, chained and on the way to harem. (from which time period, from what geographical region?) Their territory at various times ranged from Chinese Turkestan to northern India, to the fringes of the Balkans and Russia. Change ). The order of importance to ancient Greeks is the following. The language was what made the distinction. No matter that most could not tell a Irishman from a Englishman. I am mixed and I am 100% white. In white marble classical sculpture, he viewed the embodiment of ideal beauty. Ethiopians, Eritreans and Somalis are mixed Semitic and Black African so it’s not wonder they see themselves as mixed. Archaeologists are people of today. It was with the ‘new’ European empires (Britain, France, USA etc) that the idea of racial superiority and discrimination against colour took a hold. ABOVE: Photograph from Wikimedia Commons of an Uyghur girl from Turpan, China, with blond hair and blue eyes. Indeed, there were even people whom we would consider Black living in Europe. I think Bulanik is on the right tracks here: greeks did not see your complexion that much the point as your culture, language and position. It is not viewed as a ‘mixed’ population (unless you talking of some internal politics like reacting to ‘terrorism’ etc). While the Romans were, in part, making material decisions, Winckelmann saw something else. Nothing said here indicates that Greeks saw themselves as whites, in terms of race. Continuity always follows path of least resistance. There are a few scholars who view the first instance of racism from the historical record as occuring with the Aryans in India, “So how did the Greeks understand whiteness?”. So it stands to reason that todays Greeks stand proud, at the forefront of long chain of Greek-speakers, representing a cultural-linguistic continuum spanning millennia. Ancient Haemus-people in closest proximity to Greeks, Hellenized themselves, willingly and voluntarily. Backward Arab culture? And this is what the vase represents to a degree. Multiple biological races do not lead to clear-cut racial classifications because traits simply do not agree in their frequency of distribution. I just threw that out there because it is an answer that some give. As noted by the classicist Lloyd Thompson (1993), “Romans also perceived Germanic blue eyes and blond hair (and not only the [black] Aethiops phenotype) as natural ‘defects’ (vitia) and deviations from ‘the norm’ (Juv. The Romans advanced on Egypt and, in August 30 BC, Kleopatra committed suicide to prevent them from taking her alive. Outliers such as Cypriots are mixed with the Turks who came from Mongolia. They also perpetuated and further entrenched the idea that white marble statues like the famed Apollo of the Belvedere were the epitome of beauty. Same with racists. Unfortunately, because the coins in question lack clear inscriptions, we can’t be sure if this is the case. I guess they don’t know that the founder of this philosophy was, in all likelihood, what we would consider Brown. Were my Greek ancestors all impostors? If you get to believe someone’s view according to what suits you, being afrocentric or eurocentric or whatever and not the essence or meaning of something, then let’s face it, you want to be like the ones you accuse. - Page 18 - US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum, http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/When-did-Greeks-become-white, https://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/colour-blind-racism/, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XUPZokMb6A. I am not quite sure where you get that idea from?. Nevertheless the information is still valuable with regard to the historical records, irrespective of those who created the site. Strikes me as a product of white supremacy that pretends that Europeans domesticated all grains, animals, etc that were necessary to develop more complex societies. PS. He is also known for his treatise On the Prescription of Heretics, in which he rather viciously attacks various Christian sects that he regarded as heretical. These included the Minoans, who were not Greeks at all, and who built an impressive civilization on the island of Crete. And yet again, the point is missed. I wonder if you had ever looked at it this way also?? How young is too young to teach kids about race? Ancient Greek sculptors valued animated and pulsating depictions as much as they valued perfection and realism, and it has finally . The Greeks of today are the only Haemus-peoples wanting to keep as close as possible, the identity-characteristics of their Paleo-Haemus ancestors. 5. There’s a difference. W hen members of the Unite the Right rally marched through Charlottesville on August 11, 2017 in polo shirts and carrying tiki torches, Twitter went wild with . Strikes me as hypocritical to “appropriate” Egypt for the “black” world while claiming that Greece is not really “white.”. The way group “classifies” itself (identity) is never simple. And again Galen the Greek physician, in the 1st century, stated in his work, which was kept extant by the Islamic world through ‘the famous Muslim historian, al-Mas’udi, some 8 centuries later, stated: “the ten qualities of Sudanese, thusly: “Kinky hair, thin eyebrows, broad noses, thick lips, sharp teeth, malodorous skin, dark pupils, clefty hands and feet, elongated penises and excessive merriment”. So yeah, the Ancient Greeks were not White, they were not Black, they were not Yellow and they were not, anything else other than their own Mediterranean Aegean Race, Olive skinned, and dark haired, with a few light haired Greeks here and there, but dark, thick, curly haired, Green, Brown, Black eyed Mediterranean, Civilization creating, gorgeous people…. However, it should NOT be Black peoples aim to be ‘converting’ White people as such with regard to Afrocentricism. PS. Evidently, the Macedonian name, identity, history, heritage, legacy, are far more desirable for FYRoM than their Slavic equivalents. http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/When-did-Greeks-become-white. At one time it excluded groups whom today we classify as with a doubt, white. See? The problem is that race is such a huge issue in United States politics—especially right now—that I keep feeling it necessary to write about it. ABOVE: Map from Wikimedia Commons showing the world as described by the fifth-century BC Greek historian Herodotos of Halikarnassos in his Histories. Now let’s move to the other end of the Mediterranean and talk about the Romans. 3. However, it should NOT be Black peoples aim to be ‘converting’ White people as such with regard to Afrocentricism. The ancient Greeks certainly understood that white is a color and that some people have skin that is a color close to white, but they never had any concept of “whiteness” as a racial category. He was born on this island in the city of Kition. However, once that term had arised,’Caucasian’ viz. For one thing, how can you say that Arabs had a backwards culture? What is the most suspicious thing is the time they were made (most in early XX century). How dare you accuse me of that – and after all the nice things I have done for you! His point went over your head or you deliberately ignored it. #11 of the 42 Declarations of Purity (negative confessions) is “I have not committed adultery, I have not lain with men.”. Here’s my facts Delta. ‘Residential segregation’ existed at the time along ‘racial lines’. I don’t just make stuff up for the sake of “political correctness” (whatever that means). There were non-European emperors who came to power after the Severans. In other words, most variation occurred across human populations regardless of “racial” makeup—human “races” have no taxonomic significance. (Which reminds me: I still owe you my review of “The Black Greeks” article). Such a phenomenon became all the more explicit with the Roman invasion and occupation in Egypt and North Africa. According to one DNA testing company Greeks are 5% black. There were people in classical Greece and Rome who had ancestors from the Middle East, North Africa, and even the region of Africa south of the Sahara. At the time, the city was part of the Roman province of Numidia. “Woke” is a good example—what a waking nightmare! The Mediterranean is as much a bridge as it is a barrier. To keep historical cohesion necessitates Western historical narrative being kept intact, unblemished and unspoilt…if Western Civil Societies common understandings of shared common heritage was to be adhered to. Unfortunately, it seems that you are still thinking in terms of inaccurate racial essentialism. Found insideBernai argued that white scholars had constructed a self-congratulatory image of the ancient Greeks as white Europeans, as a uniquely creative people whose originality proved that Westerners were innately creative and who, ... The Hindu God Krishna was in all probability (assuming he existed as a historical figure) a bit darker than even most other Indians yet there is aesthetic value in portraying him as literally “blue”. It’s easy to imagine that Egyptian merchants may have been a fairly common sight in Mycenaean Greece. 2. On the one hand, it’s clear that the lines surrounding “race” are arbitrary, and shift with time. If we, Haemus-peoples, stem from same common Haemus gene-pool, then Greeks have it about right when they distinguish peoples there solely on the phonetic dynamic. Obviously this sad and lonely turkanimal has no ability to grasp the meaning of time, like a baboon or a rat. Not many miles north lays Macedonia. I can believe that part of the reason that the immigrations acts of 1921 and 1924 laws went through was because of anti-Semitic bias (even though Samuel Gompers (Jewish) head of the AFL-CIO was a big supporter of the laws..) but what is often not discussed is that immigration restrictions did not include restrictions on immigrants from Latin America and Africa nor did they exclude engineers, doctors, and architects for Eastern and Southern Europe. Since as an ‘individual’ (and as a human being), It’s the construct of race (which is not absolute even today) that make you make that distinction. There is a false assumption here that how the Greeks classified themselves in the past is the be all and end all of the matter with regard to their ‘race’. Even though prevailing skin [eye/hair] colors are no indication of a person’s worth, they are still relevant to figure artists, etc. By ‘White’ here I am referring to the colour of their skin and not some socio-political construct. 9-religious awareness or concept of God Mummy Portrait of a Bearded Man, Romano-Egyptian, about 150 - 170 C, Encaustic on wood. 9. as a White/Western civilization. Identity is a construct, an illusion if you like, that a human individual build in order to survive as a social animal. One piece of evidence comes from an anecdote recorded in the Historia Augusta, an often unreliable collection of biographies of Roman emperors that was most likely written in around the fourth century AD or thereabouts. “First of all, you are using “mixed” to label “people of mixed race” says a lot- I never said a mixed person has to be mixed based on race. 1} Athenian officer (5th B.C.) The earliest period of recorded Greek history is the Mycenaean Period (lasted c. 1600 – c. 1100 BC). This is my point about ‘kop out’ to suggested they are a Considering that modern Greeks share a great genetic similarity to the Greeks of antiquity, it is safe to assume that the ancients resembled contemporary inhabitants of the country, where blue eyes and light hair are still uncommon. The Greeks drank wine at all meals and during the day. At its greatest territorial extent in the early second century AD, the borders of the Roman Empire stretched from northern England in the far north to the borders of modern-day Sudan in the far south, and from Portugal in the far west to the Persian Gulf in the far east. Were (some) ancient Greeks pale-skinned and fair-haired as contemporary native English speakers use those terms? A notable example of this is Pelops, the king of Pisa, founder of the House of Atreus, and namesake of the Peloponnesos. For instance the Battle of Britain in Dunkirk in 1942, (World War 2). Persians, Afghans and parts of the ‘Middle East’ too, in places like Syria etc. In Britain and the United States during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, there were seriously people who insisted that the Irish were not white and used this as justification for their subjugation by the English. Plus, they are also individuals, and each person has unique view of the world. We shouldn’t imagine, based on Greek statues, that ancient Greek men were all muscle-bound jocks. sorry for “decents” I meant “descendants”. Obviously Europeans (including European-Americans) ignore the very obvious fact that they are not the originators of “civilization” but rather its beneficiaries. Du Bois would call a "color prejudice." The Natural colour-tone of Ancient-Hellenes never differed greatly from the mean-Mediterrenean one. Wrong. Why would a Greek or Italian be seen as less desirable than a Mexican or Nigerian if the laws were strictly about promoting a “White” country..? The traits that racists latch onto to define racial categories are entirely arbitrary and superficial. The Ancient Greeks were well aware of the Negroid and mixed racial types; 2. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eMfqw_PMF8). I guess I would be a splitter. I also think that having tanned, bronze skin is not the same as being brown. The Byzantine Eastern-Romans got theirs from the ancient-Hellenes. So much jealousy of this most beautiful small country, that we should be thankful ,even that we are able to speak or have a language all over the world is because of greeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A homogeny can easily explain why these distinctions/definitions were never derived. Ultimately, efforts by Greeks and Italians to portray themselves as white proved successful and it is partly on account of these efforts that most Americans today accept them as white without question. So for Westerners, Greece is part of their tradition (via Rome) and they would naturally take ‘offence’ if others suggested otherwise. What’s wrong with black hair, you don’t like Mediterranean folk? There is a difference because someone whose research is about past (the actual Ancient Greeks), such as historians or archaeologists, do not need to care about present. Nobody cares what color people are. Though the two are ‘quintessentially different’ in how they constructed their civilisation and how they grouped and treated people. If you spoke their language, and had received their values and education, you were considered Greek. Semites and Greeks are often have light eyes on Egyptian and Greek`s ancient pictures.Egyptian pictures reproduce exactly the skin colour of Semites and Sea people as the ellow-white,while Eguptians are brown-skinned. Well that’s taking things a bit far. On the back of the name dispute with FYRoM…every Greek-hating man and his dog contributed something towards the character-assassination of the Hellenic Republic and the Greek-Hellenic peoples, which ultimately manifested into an all out attack on Western values and culture. Greeks prefer Haemus-Native instead. Those poor broads! Dionysius I, the ruler of Syracuse, had blond hair and freckles, whilst the Athenian playwright Euripides, also had a fair and freckled complexion. Interesting. Period. Plus, “Greeks c.330 BC” are hardly your “average Ancient Greeks”. Yes I agree, and you provided examples of black Africans in ancient Rome. This strongly suggests that his description of Zenon as a dark-skinned man of Phoenician ancestry is accurate. No. Günther performed a detailed analysis of Greek history, from a biological perspective. [Angel (1943; 1944; 1945; 1946a, b, c.] Angel (1971), also noted that the immigrant Indo-Europeans, were of Nordic subrace. However, in the real world, and in academia this sort of ‘reductionism’ is only carried so far. On many temples and buildings in Ancient Greece there were many sculptures with much detail. Romans have been listed in many sources as having red hair in rare cases showing what we see in Italy today. For the past few decades, the politically correct and the Afrocentrists have put it about that the ancient Egyptians were Negroid or substantially Negroid. The Greeks didn’t like women back then. Unless it is to suggest inadvertently or otherwise. Similarly, the Anglo-Saxons (5th – 11th centuries) thought “Ethiopians” were mythical monsters and beasts – the typical Anglo-Saxon therefore would have been unfamiliar with them to the extent when they heard of Ethiopians or on a rare occasion had sighted one – thought they weren’t human. My field is dominated by white folks. The problem is not the lack of the ability to understand, it’s the lack of will. To know that, requires extensive backround knowledge on Hellenism and Hellenic peoples. Or at least they are no more European than the central European or the Balkan countries. at the time these civilizations were created. They referred to them using hateful ethnic slurs such as “dago” and “wop.”. Things go much further, though, because we can be quite certain that Greeks and Italians have been in contact with dark-skinned peoples of African and Near Eastern ancestry from the very beginning of their history, from a time even before the development of the Greek alphabet. Thomas Jefferson and the Great Wink of 1776, Sandra Laing: a black girl born to white parents. If you think I am wrong, you will have to present compelling historical evidence to the contrary. The most recent book by David Reich covers it for the last few thousand years. Tertullianus was an older contemporary of Origenes of Alexandria (lived c. 184 – c. 253 AD), an Egyptian Christian theologian, apologist, and scholar who wrote in the Greek language. Upon his death on 4 February 211 AD, he was succeeded by his two sons with Julia Domna: Geta and Caracalla, who were, in all likelihood, of mixed Italian, Phoenician, Amazigh, and Syrian ancestry. Then it is possible to say ‘retrospectively’ that the Greeks are ‘Caucasian’ without being ‘dishonest’ and/or providing a false representation of what the Greek phenotype might actully look like. as a White/Western civilization. “Race” division doesn’t, after all, have to be made based on physical appearance. Read the article, I suspect that whilst making serious points, the author is being a bit of a controversialist! There are countless Greek scenes with men having sex with other men, boys and even animals. -You know this is called “Lewontin’s fallacy” for a reason, right? Just a thought. He concluded that the Nordic sub-race formed something of an ideal for the Greeks, and that the Nordic element was more influential than any other. In that respect my friend speaks in the same way any person of colour might. Patroclus and Achilles from a Greek drinking cup, circa 500 BC. Also, by documenting ancient recorded dates of the Egyptian GREAT YR, which is just under 26,000yrs in length, it has been established that the Egyptian Civilization is at least 50,000yrs old, which coinsides with Manetho’s claim. It’s very well known that Egypt was established well before Roman and Greek civilizations. A Greek friend of mine has always referred to white people as distinct from Greeks, for as long as I’ve known him. Besides water, wine was the main drink of the ancient Greeks. If you can equate what I say about the Japanese example. When I say “the black Greeks” article is a mess, it’s not because I oppose the idea of Pelasgians being black- but because the article is full of factual errors and shows lack of understanding/knowledge of the subject. Johanna Hanink shows that our idealized image of ancient Greece dangerously shapes our view of the country’s economic hardship and refugee crisis. I can understand why you think the way you do, but it is just a little bit more complicated and/or runs taht bit ‘deeper’. They were rather provincial & had never traveled. The more impactful use of the term is the second classification. I think only ‘exceptional’ individuals will be able to reach this level. Unbeknownst to Perseus, Andromeda had previously been engaged to her uncle Phineus, who was jealous of Perseus and started a conspiracy, plotting to murder him. Although in post-Independence Greece, this allegory was no longer useful, it’s potency endured among the Western audience. A language that develops dialects is evidence of population mixing. Origenes is best known for his On First Principles (a four-volume treatise on Christian theology) and his Against Kelsos (an apologetic treatise written in response to the anti-Christian tract The True Word, written by the Greek controversialist Kelsos), but he also wrote extensive commentaries on books of the Bible, including a Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew and a Commentary on the Song of Songs. A similar rule applies to Roman fresco paintings from the cities of Pompeii and Herculaneum. How the ancient Greeks and Romans thought about skin color. I think much of our dialogue is based on a ‘problem of understanding’. Of the eleven Italian men who were killed by the mob, none of them had been convicted. PS 2 One piece of good mannered advice: being Greek is a tough job. The whole notion that people are either “white” or “not white” is entirely a modern social construct that was originally invented by people of western European descent during the Early Modern Period (lasted c. 1450 – c. 1750) in order to justify slavery, colonialism, and racism. Now, things are not that simple of course. We shouldn’t be into revisionism without substantiation of facts. This is possible. The answer of course is they don’t stop being Greek or Slav alike. Greek Architecture - An Exploration of Ancient Greek Structures. Color restoration of a Trojan archer from the Temple of Aphaia, Aegina. Content. Mark Abbe was ambushed by color in 2000, while working on an archeological dig in the ancient Greek city of Aphrodisias, in present-day Turkey. All that is being stated is that they did identify colour of skin. He wrote a number of books about Greece and the surrounding Balkans and was considered an authority on the subject. I am not sure, and yes, we can talk about it. Do you expect them to care what you think? The preceding statement is true because Islam and the culture of the middle east outside Israel prohibits innovation and creativity. So how did the Greeks understand whiteness? For more literary descriptions of pigmentation in ancient Greek poetry and prose, as well as craniological evidence, the following works are recommended: De Lapouge (1899), Jax (1933), Myres (1930), Reche (1936) and Ridgeway (1901).
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